| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CabinCreek-Kentucky |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 6:54:17 PM
well, for goodness sake .. about a month ago .. our CREEK (olde english sheepdog .. she's about three years old now) started peeing every time she comes into the house. we've had her checked for bladder problems with the vet .. she did indeed have an infection .. (vet feared much worse!) .. but after extensive tests .. it was diagnosed just as an infection and antibiotics have cleared it up.
BUT .. she still pees EVERY time she steps foot inside the house! she doesn't even very much want to come into the house anymore either! makes us sad .. cuz' we do love to have them with us. CABIN still comes in and hangs around.
AND ... CREEK has started 'digging' huge holes in the yard. i know it is the 'nature' of some dogs to dig .. but she didn't seem to do this before. they have a HUGE fenced area .. and .. of course, she chooses to dig at the bottom of the steps and around the house!
attention?? mad?? still sumpthin' the vet hasn't diagnosed??
have any of your gurlz had the problems with your pooches?
True Friends, Frannie
CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY
|
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 1:06:53 PM
Mary Ann, I did mean Ribi--I remembered the narcotics detection part, but thought she was a type of terrier. I know Frannie's are Olde English Sheep dogs. :)
I KNOW you're right about the consistency, although I also know I fail sometimes! I was a special ed teacher decades ago, and remember the behavior modification rule... that if you give a reward for unwanted behavior just once, "hope will spring eternal". True with dogs, as well. The ways we make dogs anxious was a major teaching in "Cesar's Way", which was news to me. Recognising anxiety is really helpful, and causing it is repugnant. Thanks!
Frannie, is Hank a voracious reader? Phil will listen to me tell him what I'm learning, but rarely reads the same books. I'd love it if we both could read, then discuss!
There is a Redeemer. |
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 11:41:41 AM
Ann, did you mean my dog or Frannie's? Actually, my dog is a German Shepherd. She was born in Hungary and imported here for work in narcotics detection. She didn't do so well, so they tried to rework her for customs work at O'Hare, but she just wasn't going to be consistent enough to bet someone's life on. I had a connection to the trainer's company, so she came to live with me.
This dog is hands down the smartest dog I've ever dealt with. Her loyalty and obedience is amazing. If you take the time to gently show her what you want, she won't let you down.
Ann, I understand how you can have a soft spot for the senior citizens. But here's the easy way to do things. Be very sure and specific about what you need for your dog. Have standards of behavior in mind like you would for your kids. When they step outside those boundaries, be firm about reinforcing them There's a great sense of security (for both dogs AND kids!) in knowing the rules and expectations. If some days it's okay and other days it's not, then you're not being fair and consistent and it sets them up for anxiety and increased bad behavior. I remember when I was a teen, my dad was absolutely rock solid consistent; and I knew that if I broke the rules, there'd be all sorts of heck to pay. So I didn't break the rules; I knew the consequences. He never failed me.  |
| CabinCreek-Kentucky |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 06:13:22 AM
ohhh .. hank will have lotsa' "books" under the tree this year! xo
True Friends, Frannie
CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY
|
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 04:59:38 AM
Thanks for all the book ideas. I will expand my library! Jazzy has come a long way in the four years she's been with us, but was absolutely alpha dog until age ten--and you're right, she sees herself as boss here, too...off and on, anyway. I always seem to lose ground with "elderly dogs", as I have trouble being firm with them... and thus, behavior always deteriorates.
Am I right in remembering your dog is also a terrier? Boy, they can be both smart and stubborn. Extremely engaging, too!
Ann.... who will try to learn to be alpha.
There is a Redeemer. |
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 04:43:40 AM
Oh gosh; I'd recommend anything by Patricia McConnell, such as "The Other End of the Leash," which goes into a lot of explanation of OUR typical expectations for dogs and why they don't work, and "For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in You and Your Best Friend" to "Culture Clash," the landmark book by Jean Donaldson on dog psychology and dog needs interfacing with ours. "Don't Shoot the Dog" is another great one, as is "The Cautious Canine," another Patricia McConnell classic.
A lot of what I do with Ribi is sort of taken from what I do with horses, so much of what I've read or learned is specific to training horses. And I have to give this dog a LOT of credit; she's just plain smart, and lives to please me (which I have tried very hard to cultivate). She will come, sit, lie down, stay, heel, fetch, drop to the ground on command when retrieving a ball, shake hands, go off leash through the woods on hikes or when I'm trail riding, jump on to obstacles I specify when I tell her, rides in the car like a perfect lady, doesn't bark excessively or chew up my stuff, is flawless and tension free going to the vet or anywhere else out in the world on leash, etc. The only issues are she gets a little carried away when she sees another dog (she has a lot of dog hunger) and she's a bit of a submission urinator when she's unsure or learning something new (which I ignore; it gives her more confidence). She sleeps next to me on the floor, and rarely lets me out of her sight. She's sleeping beside my feet right now.
I share your concerns about the road. I live on a very busy state highway, so eighteen wheelers are going by at 65+mph. I've lost a number of good dogs to the road, and by that lesson I learned that outside dogs don't work for me. For that reason I don't let her out without supervision. But she's impeccable about going with me and remaining obedient, so I don't worry. She goes to the garden with me and either picks a sunny place to doze while I weed or cultivate, or on hot summer days picks a shady spot.
BTW, not coming when called means she doesn't see you as alpha, so that would be the place to begin. Alpha dog always calls the others to them. Alpha dogs never go get the other dogs.  |
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 7:48:44 PM
Thanks, Mary Ann. I'm sure you're right about the need to meet the method to the animal. I am very impressed with the way you tied Ribi to you while training her... what dedication. Sort of boggles the mind. Every dog I've had has had some issue--although mostly delightful, always one sticking point. Here, the worst crime is going to the road (very fast traffic on a "country road"), closely linked with not coming when called. They have roughly 40 acres to roam, but I think every dog has had one adventure on the road. Jazzy stood there recently and stopped traffic. Sigh.
Any recommended books you've found helpful? I'll try to broaden my knowledge.
There is a Redeemer. |
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 6:10:26 PM
I endorse Tina's idea of putting this dog on a leash and attaching it to you. As long as she can't pull you off your feet easily and get you hurt, it's a great way to teach a dog that they do what you do and listen to what you say. When I first brought home my dog Ribi, she was two years old and had been kennel raised except for the very specific training she'd had. (She was supposed to be a narcotics detection dog, but had some problems identifying exactly where the drugs were.) She was two years old and not even housebroke yet. So one of the things I did was to attach a leash from the belt loop of my jeans to her collar. If I got up, she got up. If I sat, she sat. If I went about in the kitchen, so did she. There was never much occasion for her to make a housetraining mistake because she was right there for me to correct. It was easy. When the day came that I removed the leash, she still stayed with me. Now she'll even stay close when I'm cantering along on a horse; she runs with us.
Ann, the book "The Dog Whisperer" was not written by Cesar Millan. Cesar's television show is called "The Dog Whisperer" on the National Geographic channel. He does have his detractors, as there are many different ways to train dogs, or horses, or kids. It's just one skillset and you can see if you like it for you and yours. As a horse trainer the best advice I can tell you is to learn to read your animal carefully, and get all the skills you can. This way you can have an assortment of tools to choose from when you need to train, and do what's optimal for your animal. |
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 2:57:55 PM
Tina, funny! We're glad you're on this site to give out free wisdom... Mary Ann, we once had a rescued female (think brain damage here) who did the submission peeing thing...as well as lots of crazy stuff.
Frannie, I've never read "The Dog Whisperer". Is it also Cesar Milan's? Since we don't get cable, I've never seen his show. I actually bought the book (Caesar's Way) after hearing how much it helped my friend--but I bought it for my dad, who wants a German Shepherd when he is alone some day. The book is to make him think...., and of course, I HAD to read it first.
Interesting note regarding the local trainer's methods. My appliance repair guy who is sort of like the family doctor for the household appliances and really interesting, told me that he broke his large dog of biting when a puppy by considering how the mother dog puts her teeth on the puppy's throat to discipline.... so Simon made "teeth" by making a claw out of his hand, and the next time the dog used teeth, Simon did the claw move on it's neck. Training one time did the trick.
Good luck with your sweet pup!
XO,
Ann
There is a Redeemer. |
| doglady |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 10:08:23 AM
Franni,
This sounds like a dominance situation. By being left alone at times, and then allowed to come into the house, it sounds like Creek is displaying her dominance over the situation by trying to control where "she chooses to pee". I know, it sounds silly, but this is dog thinking. By roaming all over before the fence came into the picture, she also wore herself out more. She may be trying to dominate the humans or the other dogs by marking your house.
Either way, it is not acceptable. I would put her on a leash and keep her with you for some re-training while in the house for at least 6 weeks.(while she is in the house) One on one time and exercise will help too. Many people call me the female version of the Dog Whisper only I don't charge $100 an hour. I must work on that ; )
Doglady
The dogs own the house but the people pay the mortgage!
www.kennelcreations.com |
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 09:40:17 AM
Christine, it sounds like what you have is different. That's called submission urination, and it has nothing to do with needing to go. It's a doggie expression of deference, and sometimes excitement/submission. Alpha dogs don't do this. It can be anything from a few cc's to twenty or more, but it's still not a full pee like when a dog needs to relieve themselves, or when they pee for a bladder infection.
I have a very submissive dog, and sometimes it just pays to not speak to her or have any eye contact. Why force her hand? {;)] |
| MsCwick |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 07:54:44 AM
My in-laws have a little yorkie and whenever they bring him to visitus here at our house, he has a piddle problem. It happens whenever any of us TALK to him. Even the inlaws!
My dad has amixed breed and she is a huge baby. About 50 lbs, spoiled, but does not get on furniture either, she is 9 years old. Whenever she comes inside, even after going out to pee, if we talk to her excited-like, she will piddle. Or if we have just come home and she's excited.
Other than this BIG PEE in your last post, is she peeing a full pee? or is it like little piddle right inside the door?
Would it be worth your time to take her out on a leash and wait for her to pee, then take her back in the house, and if she doesn't pee, reward her with a little treat? Is there another entrance to your home that you could try? Maybe something inside the door scared her and now she gets nervous? I wonder if you changed things up on her for the time being and gave her the opportunity to come inside differently? When she pees, do you think she even knows she's doing it? LIke does she look all happy and excited, and make a pee without knowing? Or does she come in and then GO FIND a spot to pee?? Or maybe you could distract her and have a really good meal waiting for her right inside the door(if that's where the pee is happening) and her nose will lead her to it --- a good distraction!
When she digs, is she running around all excited like and then digging or is it a laborious dig, like she's trying to make a place to lie down? This is another think my dad's dog started doing when she was excited and happy was digging a little then running around.
I think that animals go through changes just like people. Maybe she is going through a midlife crisis. I know it sounds silly, but I believe in it.
Good Luck,
Cristine
|
| _Rebecca_ |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 07:52:27 AM
I love Caesar Milan! He is just wonderful.
You can get his show on Podcast. I have his book. He is coming out with another book and he has webinars.
Pick your dog up and bring the dog to an area where YOU feel very relaxed. Sit down with the dog and cuddle then allow the dog to feel calm/submissive and THEN allow her to wonder around your house on her own. DO NOT use any excitement in your voice. In fact, just being there with her relaxed and not talking to her will make her feel more secure. Do this a couple times a week and I think that you will see progress.
Something about entering your house is getting her too excited or tense.
just a thought,
.·:*¨¨* :·.Rebecca.·:*¨¨* :·.
Wife of Jonathan, Mother of Joel, Caitlyn, Elia, Nathanael |
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 07:41:38 AM
Your dogs sound very fortunate to get their runs with your honey! That's a HUGE advantage that very few dogs get! I don't run, but I do take my dog on trail rides through the woods, and she's always her most peaceful on those heavy exercise days.
I would agree that the method of making the dog bite herself was a little over the top. While it was effective, it probably wasn't necessary. I kind of wonder if when Hank goes running, he sees himself as more of a peer to the dogs instead of their pack leader. And perhaps they pick up on this and reciprocate in kind. If you feel generous to yourself, Cesar Millan has several DVDs out, too. Sometimes it's easier to understand the energy he talks about than to read about it. It's a fundimental part of horse training, too.
What sort of surface is she peeing on? I know a lot of dogs are persistent about returning to a previously marked spot, particularly if they want to be alpha or feel a need to 'assert' themselves. And boy, it's hard to fool a dog's nose! |
| CabinCreek-Kentucky |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 07:02:16 AM
oh ann .. i meant to mention that i immediately put that book on hank's christmas list (i did get him .. the dog whisperer .. what do you think of that book? i haven't yet read it). oh .. and they do definitely get exercise. EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE .. unless we are having a RAGING STORM .. hank takes the dogs for a 'run' through the forest here at Cabin Creek Farm. He goes a total of 3 miles a day .. one and a half in and one and a halaf out .. of the woods. He says that is their 'joy' time .. that they love to run with him.. stopping to sniff this and sniff that and explore this and that .. but mostly .. they keep up with him. He has done this ever since they were olde enough to run with him. I know that when we travel . .they miss their daily run. And all he has to do is to put on his shorts and tennis shoes .. and they get all yippy and excited! So .. exercise .. they do get plenty of.
When i first got the pups .. i took them to a local trainer (who has actually been on Jay Leno and other tv shows because of all his trained dogs can do.) He instilled in me the importance of being 'the leader of the pack' .. and to use a stern (not mean .. but 'boss' voice with them). And to use the same short phrase so they can come to know what i mean. He also gave me his book that he had written on training dogs. I did choose to NOT go back to him for two reasons .. ONE is that he charges .. and are you ready for this!!! ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS PER HOUR PER DOG. GOSH! no wonder he hits the TV circuit at those rates! And two .. even though it worked .. he told me that i might not like some of his tactics .. when my puppy nipped at me .. he took her lip and curled it into her mouth and closed her mouth on it ... and of course 'my baby' yelped! BUT .. on the other hand .. she stopped nipping! (although .. she has revereted back to 'nibbling' . never hurting though!)
I'm on my way to town today and Caesar's Way is on my list! THANKS!
And oh my yessss . .i must admit that hank has ALWAYS treated our dogs as humans .. and it is just in the last month (after reading an article by The Dog Whisperer .. i have heard him tell several people that he has learned that a dog is FIRST .. and ANIMAL .. SECOND .. a DOG .. and third .. a PET. Harsh words for Hank .. cuz' he has alway felt dogs were better than most people!!! BUT .. i do see him treating them more as animals now than as people. I know that he has indeed negated that 'alpha dog' thing by confusing them at times. They are HUGE .. and i'm not sure there is a crate big enough to be fair to put them into for any length of time .. we do have the BIGGEST crates made on the general market .. and it is TIGHT in there for them. BUT .. we might give that a short-term try for sure.
I do believe what you said .. that this problem started with one thing and continued with another. i think the 'bladder infection' is the 'core' problem .. but that it has continued into a 'behaviour' problem. Hank is stern but not HARSH with the dogs. He knows that dogs will pee and poop .. and that the can learn to do it outside .. but that mistakes do happen. He said that one day he brought her in .. and she IMMEDIATELY squatted and did a BIG PEE .. he yelled NO! and took her outside. He won't ever be mean to them .. i don't think he could be if he had to! But he said she now prefers to be outside (she likes that porch and bed out there!) I will get the book and we'll try the crate thing for a few days to see if that works. Thanks gurlfrenz .. ya'll are the greatest! xo, frannie ..
p.s. i'll let you know if these little tricks work for her! xo
True Friends, Frannie
CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY
|
| Horseyrider |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 06:16:57 AM
I would second Ann's suggestion of "Cesar's Way." And I'll give you this piece of advice: A tired dog is a good dog. Just because a dog has access to a yard doesn't make him exercised. You need to take daily walks together. Think of it like this. Dogs go out in pack hunts together. Part of their sense of community and fellowship is tied up in the hunt, whether or not they find any prey. They're hard wired to exercise by walking together, and your dogs got that until you fenced (although I totally support that responsible decision). Here in our culture we take that away from dogs, and then we're surprised when we have behavior problems. Walking together is a BASIC for a dog. Lack of exercise causes tension and anxiety, and dogs express this sort of bad feeling in a variety of ways, including peeing in the house. (Or even on your bed! THAT'LL get your attention! )
My guess is your dog started this for one reason, and is continuing it for another. So my suggestion (other than reading the book) would be to take the dog for loooong walks every single day, play ball a lot and make the dog tired; and then crate while in the house for a few weeks. If your dog soils the crate, take her back to the vet and tell him the bladder infection is back.
I know these dogs are like members of your family, but please try not to humanize them too much, like we all tend to want to do. They're DOGS and have dog needs. Part of our care has to be in dealing with them as the canine species and not kids. Instead of expecting them to be more human, we need to be more doglike.
And crating is humane; it's a simulation of a den. |
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 06:06:04 AM
Frannie, not to be a pest, but I still recommend the book... attention isn't actually the problem Caesar Milan usually deals with so much as the need for exercise ("work") and for the pack leader (you and Hank) to be firm, which is somewhat complicated to explain. I saw myself a lot in terms of creating an anxious dog by giving attention inappropriately, and by not being firm enough. I experimented immediately on Jazzy, who acted relieved that I took charge... and this isn't necessarily common sense stuff. Phil's always had well trained dogs, yet he was also speaking to Jazzy in a way that I had to "correct". It has nothing whatsoever to do with how well you treat them and love them, but simply tweaking the way you "lead".
Love,
Ann
There is a Redeemer. |
| CabinCreek-Kentucky |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 05:31:12 AM
i suppose it could be an 'attention' thing .. but this problem did start while we were here. we purposely got TWO DOGS so that they would always have 'company'. Cabin and Creek get along famously (except at feeding time .. and CABIN is the 'boss' on that one .. sooo . hank always separates their feeding areas. and attention! LORDY! they probably get a lot more of that than most dogs do. They spend time in and out of the house. Hank is always 'on the ground' with them. They do NOT sleep IN our bed .. but sleep beside the bed .. and sometimes roam into the lower cabin in their own little 'spot'.
This problem started after we 'fenced' them .. they have about half an acre of fenced area to run in. They used to run and roam all over the hillside here .. but it wasn't fair to the neighbors over the hills (god love them .. they never complained) .. but the highway is half a mile away .. and a few neighbor dogs have lost their lives down there .. soooo .. to be a 'good neighbor' and to keep them from becoming road-kill .. we did fence them in and they are not allowed to 'roam' any more. OH .. they also have a beautiful screened in big back porch to come up on whenever they want. There is even a 'cushy' day bed out there that Creek will jump up on and snooze.
When we travel for a few days .. we leave TONS of food and water for them .. and we have neighbors that come down and check on them every day. If we are gone for longer .. we have a wonderful VET who boards dogs .. we leave them there. They stay in the same 'pen' together and twice a day .. all dogs are given some yard time. We've been doing this system for a couple years now .. but the 'pee-ing' problem has just started in the last two months. (hmmmmmmmm .. i'm thinking maybe it is in rebellion to the fence and not roaming. that cannot be changed though .. for their own safety.)
they will be with the vet for the month of january .. sooo .. we will ask him to closely observe her and to keep checking her out if he perceives there is a problem.
thanks for all your great advice. xoxo
True Friends, Frannie
CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY
|
| Phils Ann |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 04:55:35 AM
Frannie, how exasperating! Have you read Caesar's Way? I highly recommend it to you... and I agree with the psychological assessment everyone's given. There are fortunately ways to work a dog without obtaining sheep... a friend (who suggested the book to me) uses a doggie backpack on her yellow lab while walking her, to wear her out.
Our little terr(i)or recently had a urinary tract infection, too. She's always wanted to cut corners anyway with peeing on the rugs, and gets stern warnings now from time to time, which absolutely help. She also gets enormous praise when she's been "good". I sure hope you and Creek get this thing worked out!
XO,
Ann
There is a Redeemer. |
| Niamh |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 9:57:34 PM
Nothing to say to help you. Just had to post because your title sucked me in, LOL!
It does sound like an emotional issue though-like the peeing started because of a physical problem and continued because she knew it got attention. I had a border collie who perpetuated a behavior like this for attention-it quit when he felt acknowledged. Listen to me, the doggie psychiatrist! |
| Tina Michelle |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 9:34:08 PM
seems to me that she is upset /seperation thing. I had a border collie that everytime I'd be away even for an hour she would be very, very, very bad.
She just simply hated being left alone.
And of course being a herder she bored very easily.She'd dig holes, or chew on things, anything she could do aggravating, she'd do it.
I also had a standard collie that when I left the house one time, came back to find one shoe(yes, one) from every single pair of shoes that I owned drug into the living room, and guess which shoe he chewed up the inside of it the most? yep..my favourite pair.
Simply bored and suffering from seperation anxiety.
poor thing knew I was upset and sulked all day long and part of the next.
I'd have your baby checked again at the vets to make sure that the bladder/kidney infection has been taken care of.
And talk to him about how to make the dogs feel better when you are away.
My mom's dog goes a bit ballistic when my mom is away. Even if someone else helps take care of her, she'll still do the attitude thing and try to tear up things if she can. It's just that she is so used to being near my mom and sleeping at the foot of the bed, so she simply does not know what to do with herself when my mom is away.
Anyhow..I hope you find out what's the problem real soon.
~Seize the Day! Live, Love, Laugh~ |
| CabinCreek-Kentucky |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 7:57:57 PM
Creek is only three years old .. so i don't think she is demented yet! "I" on the other hand am MUCH older than three years! hmmmmmmm????
HOWEVER .. i have NOT yet started to pee on the floor!
True Friends, Frannie
CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY
|
| Luzy |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 7:57:29 PM
Could she be pissy/upset cause you've been away a lot lately?? Sounds like she wants attention someway. Our beagle-weiner shreds paper when we've been away, even if we've been away most of the day. Separation anxiety. Who watches Cabin and Creek while you're away? Do they seem happy with the arrangement? I could be totally off base, but thought I'd throw this theory out there. Good luck!
--
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am. |
| LadyCrystal |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 7:09:40 PM
How old is she? I had a dog that started doing strange things. She would want to go out to go and then she would want to come right back in and then she would go. She was diagnosed with canine cognitive disfunction disorder. It is like a doggy dementia. Other than that I am not sure.
Good luck,
Alicia
http://fromcitytocountrygirl.blogspot.com/
follow your dreams |
|
|
