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CabinCreek-Kentucky Posted - Dec 18 2006 : 8:29:21 PM
spent some time at Barnes and Noble bookstore tonight .. got Ceasar's Way for honey hunk .. i think i'm going to go under the covers with a flashlight and read it before giving it to him for Christmas.. it looks great! thanks for the suggestion! xo

True Friends, Frannie

CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY

11   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Horseyrider Posted - Dec 21 2006 : 07:41:25 AM
Also, you might need to make a choice between having a farm dog that dispatches coons, possums, woodchucks and other unwanted critters, and also know that they'll dispatch cats; and a dog that kills nothing. It's asking a lot of a dog to make these distinctions.

I sure feel for you with these struggles. Your dogs are lucky to have you though; it's clear you really truly care. (((((HUGS)))))
Horseyrider Posted - Dec 21 2006 : 07:38:55 AM
When the dogs went up to the kitty's property, they were visitors. When the kitty came to yours, they were guarding their turf. Interlopers Will Be Dispatched. Yes it's common dog behavior, but it definitely has to be discouraged.

Since they're cat-aggressive and dog-aggressive, I would be especially wary of them with small children. They may get along most of the time, but usually dog-aggressive dogs think of small children as subordinates in their pack, and will suddenly attack. It might seem unprovoked to a casual observer, but the dog won't think so; the dog will take offense to a child looking at him too long, or looking while walking (a stalking behavior), or if the child comes into their physical space uninvited. This is part of why we also need to teach children about dog behavior, and even as adults we have to remember to never touch someone else's dog without express permission. To knowledgeable dog people, it's almost as much an invasion to reach over uninvited and touch someone's dog as it is to touch the owner's behind! You just don't do that.

Can you get Cesar's show on the National Geographic channel? Being able to literally see his timing could be very helpful. If you can't access it, you might be interested in buying the DVDs of his show, or some of his training discs. I believe you'd find a great deal of helpful information there; he works with both dog-aggressive dogs and cat-aggressive dogs on the show.

As far as training cats, that's more difficult because they're solitary hunters and are more aloof about gaining your approval. If a stray came to my house and I feared for it's life, I'd make being at my house less appealing by never having food accessable, and even yelling or banging pots and pans to drive them away. I don't think I'd let the dogs see that, because they'd figure they need to join in (because they ARE pack hunters, and would for sure want to "help").

And it's a myth that cats won't hunt if you feed them! Cats will hunt if they have the drive and they had a good mouser for a teacher, even if they're not hungry. They'll kill their prey, but they won't eat it. Nope; they'll just leave all the little bodies around for you to step on.
CabinCreek-Kentucky Posted - Dec 20 2006 : 10:47:13 PM
oh mary ann .. WHAT do you do with a CAT??? they TRULY are the LEADERS and BOSS! NOTHING i have ever done with a cat has controlled them! we have this barn cat LILY who wandered down here a few months ago (i have written of her before) .. she belongs to the family up over the hill .. but they had several cats (most of which eventually disappear (coyotes we think). Lily surprized us by having KITTENS a week after she appeared. Like a 'nice human mama' .. i made a wonderful safe bed for them. And within a couple days, Lily took them and hid them under the barn. EVENTUALLY, they peeked out from under the barn .. but also, within a week, they DISAPPEARED!

NOW HERE IS A SAD, PITIFUL STORY!!! About three weeks ago, one of Lily's older offspring (Lily is quite fertile according to the family up the hill) started coming down here .. i guess he heard there was free food on the front porch! He was very skittish at first, but eventually started rubbing up against our legs. I NEVER picked up Lily (or Louie) .. for three reasons .. one: FLEAS .. and two: i KNOW they don't have rabies shots .. and three: i do NOT want cats as pets!!! We have the two big dogs .. and i was very fearful they would hurt them if we encouraged them to come around. But .. still .. i couldn't stand not to feed them .. because the family makes them forage for MICE .. will throw some occasional scraps to them. They don't really consider them PETS .. but keep them more for 'mousing'. We have had several cats as the girls grew up .. and loved them as family pets and took very good care of them. I did not have the RIGHT to have Lily neutered .. and we know it is just a matter of time, before she deposits more kittens down here for us to feed! We travel quite a bit and will be gone over a month in the dead of winter .. and there will surely be NO food on our porch during that time.

o.k. .. here comes the SAD story! on Monday .. hank went out to run the dogs .. but was back in the house within minutes .. his face was ashen and i knew he was about to cry! scared me half to death .. i asked him what was wrong!!!! he said that he walked to the dog yard over by the barn where the dogs had spent the night .. to take them running .. he did not see Lily and Louie right behind him. He opened the gate .. the dogs came charging out .. and KILLED LOUIE right in front of hank! he was shocked that they would do such a thing! (a dog's nature??) the woman up the hill who owns the cats said that before we built the fence .. cabin and creek would run up there and 'play' with the kittens .. she swore they would pick them up in their mouths and just 'toss' them into the air! never hurting or killing one! but when critters came onto our property .. it was a different story! once a stray beagle wandered down the hill .. both our dogs went after him with a vengeance .. we did manage to jump between them and save the beagle! cabin and creek have not been 'socialized' with other dogs. you NEVER see stray dogs or dogs running loose in our county .. and there are no 'dog parks' to take them to .. sooo .. other than a few dogs .. owned by three different neighbors, they did not really know other dogs. and they DID get along with them .. on their property and on ours! since we have penned them up as a courtesy to our neighbors (no one EVER complained .. but we just thought it the right thing to do to NOT let them run wild) .. they have not seen another dog or cat in many months!

we have stopped feeding LILY in hopes she will 'go home'. I told the owners what sadly happened to Louie .. it was o.k. with them .. they understood (they have several others still) .. i told them i was going to bring the remaining cat food up there in hopes that lily will stay up at the top of the hill .. because cabin and creek do come out of their yard once a day to go on their 'run' through the woods with hank. we have had dogs and cats at the same time .. i guess when you 'raise' them together .. they get along better. i wonder if our dogs saw Louie as 'prey'? so sad! xo

True Friends, Frannie

CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY

CabinCreek-Kentucky Posted - Dec 20 2006 : 10:27:59 PM
oh and gurlz .. both dogs are snoozing downstairs .. and NO PEEING!!! hank is keeping 'low-key' .. although, he sure did want to get down on the ground and tussle with them tonight. i told him to 'wait' until we finish ceasar's book .. to make sure we don't get right back to where we started from! they surely don't seem any worse for not getting all hyper and excited! AND .. we now make sure that if they are in a room and we are about to leave the room that WE go FIRST .. and don't allow them to 'lead'.

It is much harder for hank when he runs with them .. because they love to scamper ahead! i told hank i think he needs to put CABIN on a leash and make sure he stays BEHIND him (CREEK usually does stay behind or right at his heel) .. i said 'let them run wild' when they are alone together with no 'humans'. they have a VERY large yard to get THAT energy out .. and hank does take them for a three mile run almost every day!
(we went to town early this morning and got back after dark today .. so all three of them missed their run!)

xo

True Friends, Frannie

CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY

Phils Ann Posted - Dec 20 2006 : 10:54:59 AM
Wow Frannie, instant success! Great job, I might add. Right after reading the book, Jazzy went through a couple of days of being terrified of her living room bed. Like you, I ignored her (which was hard--I wanted to treat her like a child and reason with her), and before I knew it, she was using her bed again. I never did find out what started THAT problem.

Mary Ann, you are so right. I can at least speak for the dogs, cats and children!!, all of whom are often treated in a way that meets the need of the grown-up (i.e. parent) instead of the pet or child. I think we don't see what we're doing clearly much of the time.

So glad you started this topic, Frannie!

Ann

There is a Redeemer.
Horseyrider Posted - Dec 20 2006 : 09:14:26 AM
You will find that of course you can be affectionate, but it will be AFTER you give them exercise and discipline. I LOVE the way you describe bringing your dog into the house!!! OMG, I wish EVERYONE would read that about fifty times and realize that all the coochy-coo and threats and bribes in the world are things which the dog cannot relate to at all! They follow LEADERS. It doesn't mean being harsh; leaders can be benign and kind.

I really feel that the greatest gift you can give your dog is to give up what we want from them, and to give them what they need as dogs. This is a hard thing for many people to do; I see it with horse people all the time. You have to acknowledge what they are and work from there, whether canine, feline, or equine. In doing that you honor both them and yourself, and you'll find that you'll elevate your relationship to a closeness and respect you never would have dreamed possible.

Can you tell I'm excited for you?
CabinCreek-Kentucky Posted - Dec 20 2006 : 07:29:13 AM
we continue to read this book .. oh my gosh .. what an eye-opener!!!

it's all about allowing dogs to be dogs and not trying to 'humanize' them. sometimes it makes me sad .. because, we do find such joy in making our pets part of the 'human' family. Ceasar says that does such an injustice to them. makes US feel great .. but confuses them .. and usually leads to some behaviour problems.

i've discovered after reading his book .. that we truly do have very well behaved dogs .. but certainly with some 'issues' .. but they don't bite .. they are very friendly .. but according to ceasar tooooooo friendly .. the JUMPING on people is a big no-no .. and i've NEVER liked that .. hank LOVES to be 'jumped' on .. sees it as reciprocal love .. a way they show him they love him. Ceasar says it is NOT a dog's NATURE to JUMP on people.

he says what they do in a 'pack' is what is natural .. and we should honor that .. and absolutely MUST become and maintain on a 24/7 basis .. being the PACK LEADER.

I think this is a role that I have done much more than Hank. I got them as puppies before Hank came here from Maryland .. and had a full year with them. Oh yes, i surely allowed them to become puppy pack leaders at times (which must have confused them) .. THEN .. i asserted myself. BUT .. being the pack leader (even if it is just you and one dog) is a firm but CALM thing (as it is in nature with pack leader dogs).

He talks about their smelling ability being the number one asset they have from birth .. and they can SMELL fear, anger, frustration on our part.

Hank went to a rotary club dinner last night. CREEK absolutely WOULD NOT come into the house for him (or me) since her peeing incident a few weeks ago.

When he walked through the door .. there Cabin was ... calmly sitting beside me while i rocked in a chair and read Ceasar's Way. He was DUMBFOUNDED! and NO PEEING!

And i swear .. i just took a different approach to get her to come in. I walked confidently (oozing 'queendom') to the porch and just stood there (would not LOOK at her or even acknowledge her in any way). AS IS NATURE'S WAY ... a dog is curious ... and i allowed her to come up to me and SNIFF me. I still did NOT acknowledge her by petting her or bending down to her. (that is SUBMISSION). I turned and slowly and confidently walked into the house (i left the door open). I just stood there for about a minute with my back to her ... she walked into the house and sniffed me again! I calmly and confidently turned and closed the door .. she did NOT panic or pace or PEE!!!
I walked into the kitchen .. she followed .. she came up to me to smell and lick my hand. I firmly said: SIT (they know SIT and DOWN TO THE GROUND). She sat .. then laid down beside me. Without making a big 'to-do' about it .. i put my hand down and petted her. She stayed calm. Was in the house over an hour and did NOT pee!

NOW .. with all that said .. this is soooo strange to not get all excited and sweet talk to them and hand out treats at this point.

I do hope that once we have both established our PACK LEADER (and I repeat that Ceaser says that the very first vulnerable moment that we let down our guard .. our dogs WILL take over that pack leader position again!!) I do hope that towards the end of the book, he tells us how we can be affectionate again without letting the dog take over or become confused and frustrated or develop bad habits.

I know that when we leave for a full month and have to kennel them .. we will have to even more seriously make sure they know we are still the pack leaders.

This is going to be an interesting ride for both our beloved dogs and us!

True Friends, Frannie

CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY

Phils Ann Posted - Dec 19 2006 : 12:03:14 PM
Frannie, this is so easy to visualize... Yesterday Jazzy "had trouble" with obedience, and Phil reminded me that I tend to ask instead of command. SOOO, last night he "asked" Jazzy if she'd go outside...in that Daddy to baby voice. I said not a word, but sure did smile.

There is a Redeemer.
CabinCreek-Kentucky Posted - Dec 19 2006 : 07:38:39 AM
we are reading his book together .. stopping to 'a-ha' every now and then .. to discuss his philosophies and to ... A-HEM .. (throat clearing there) .. gently POINT OUT where hank or i have 'erred' in our ways! HANK definitely treats his dogs as HUMANS and this will absolutely be the hardest thing for him to change .. IF, indeed he 'humanly' can! xo

True Friends, Frannie

CABIN CREEK FARM
KENTUCKY

Phils Ann Posted - Dec 19 2006 : 04:55:45 AM
Yeah Frannie! Have fun... it's a good read.

Ann

There is a Redeemer.
Horseyrider Posted - Dec 19 2006 : 04:54:49 AM
LOL! Oh Frannie, you're so cute! Just what makes you think your flashlight under the covers trick will go without notice?

I buy books for my hubby, let him have a (brief) opportunity to read them first and then snag them! We tend to get lots of books for Christmas, and we share.

I hope you enjoy the book as much as I did. While it's certainly not the only way to cope with dogs, Cesar has a great philosophy, and there's a lot of useful information there.

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