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Across the Fence:  Free Will Or Environment?  |
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melody
True Blue Farmgirl
3341 Posts
Melody
The Great North Woods in the Land of Hiawatha
USA
3341 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 9:34:54 PM
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I am currently reading "For the Thrill of It" by Simon Baatz-about the trial of Leopold & Loeb in Chicago during the 20's that involved the brutal murder of a child by two wealthy college students solely for the thrill of the experience.
The attorney for the defense was the famous Clarence Darrow whose views regarding criminal behavior were based primarily on a book written by a gentleman by the name of Atgeld.
Initially, Darrow believed...."That crime was a matter of choice, a willful act freely taken but after reading Mr. Atgeld's book "Our Penal Machinery" he believed that environmental circumstances-poverty, unemployment, illiteracy-determined criminal behavior. An individual Darrow believed could NOT choose NOT to commit crime if circumstances dictated otherwise-free will was an illusion and a chimera, and all that mattered was the environment within which an individual had been born and raised."
What do you believe free will or environment? I would love to hear your opinion on this....
Talk to me ladies...
Melody
Farmgirl #525
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shanda
True Blue Farmgirl
522 Posts
Shanda
Broken Bow
OK
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 10:00:16 PM
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I believe in free will. I know many people who came from the poorest background and made something of themselves, and are the most trust worthy, moral people by choice. And I know some from the more privilage class, with all the advantages, education and conections, and still did wrong.
God gave us free will as a gift, it's our choice to use it.
That's my 2 cents! Sounds like you've got a good read! I'll have to check it out.
Blessings!
Shanda
Farmgirl #4233 |
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prariehawk
True Blue Farmgirl
2914 Posts
Cindy
2914 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 02:32:15 AM
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I think it's a little bit of both. I have a degree in psychology and I know, both from my own experience and from studying, that things happen to people that are traumatic, and the person blocks them out because they can't deal with them at the time. Then these repressed events influence a person without their conscious awareness. The sub-conscious mind can can influence a person in profound ways. There's also the very real problem of mental illness, which I believe can rob a person of free will. I also believe that the better a person knows herself, the more free will she has. I think free will is like a muscle--the more you exercise it the stronger it becomes. As for environment, it's the same. If you grow up in a healthy, loving environment you learn to make good choices. If you grow up in a dysfunctional, chaotic environment, your choices are going to be influenced by that environment. I think God gave us free will but it's up to us to find it and use it. Some people have almost no self-awareness and don't even realize they have free will. they're like boats without a rudder, tossed about on the ocean. then again, there are some people who are simply sociopaths and heaven only knows what causes that. I have a book called "The Sociopath Next Door". It's about people who appear to be normal but secretly have no conscience. they can do anything they please and not feel guilty. I never understood this until I had a "friend" who turned out to be a sociopath. And psychologists debate what causes it. I just know I don't understand it and don't want to. There are some things that only God understands.
Cindy
"Vast floods can't quench love, no matter what love did/ Rivers can't drown love, no matter where love's hid"--Sinead O'Connor
"In many ways, you don't just live in the country, it lives inside you"--Ellen Eilers
Visit my blog at http://www.farmerinthebelle.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - prariehawk on Sep 09 2012 02:48:36 AM |
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queenmushroom
True Blue Farmgirl
985 Posts
Lorena
Centerville
Me
USA
985 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 05:01:55 AM
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Free will. Look at different figures in hide...Patty Hearst newspaper heiress, Abe. Lincoln born into poverty. I say free choice.
Patience is worth a bushel of brains...from a chinese fortune cookie |
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rphelps4
True Blue Farmgirl
620 Posts
roxanna
westport
indiana
USA
620 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 05:40:56 AM
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| I have a question for Prariehawk, do you think someone who is narcissistic, normally has other mental disorders? Roxanna |
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Okie Farm Girl
True Blue Farmgirl
1674 Posts
Mary Beth
McLoud
Oklahoma
USA
1674 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 06:21:11 AM
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Definitely free will. :-) All of human beings have SOMETHING in our environment that could be blamed for any number of things, but the fact is, we are all responsible for our own actions and in the end, can't blame anyone or anything but ourselves. There are too many people who have come out of really tough environments to become model citizens to think that it isn't all about choices.
Mary Beth
www.OklahomaPastryCloth.com
www.Oklahomapastrycloth.com/blog
The Sovereign Lord is my strength - Habakkuk 3:19 |
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brightmeadow
True Blue Farmgirl
2047 Posts
Brenda
Lucas
Ohio
USA
2047 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 07:00:12 AM
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I have to agree that it's both. There have been at least a couple of times in my life when I read about a psychological "case study" and realized "Oh my, that is ME!" I had formerly acted and behaved in the standard,typical way without even realizing I was - I thought I was making choices, but it was the same choice anyone in my circumstances would have made.
For example, "Motherless Daughters: The Legacy of Loss" made me see myself in ways I had never considered before. I lost my mother at age 14, I read the book when I was 35. Grief washed over me all over again - partly for the loss of my mother, but also for the choices I had not made during my youth because I had acted in such predictable ways.
You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands - You shall be happy and it shall be well with you. -Psalm 128.2
Visit my blogs at http://brightmeadowfarms.blogspot.com (farming) http://brightmeadowknits.blogspot.com (knitting) or my homepage at http://home.earthlink.net/~brightmeadow |
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Emily Anna
True Blue Farmgirl
863 Posts
Emily
Fort Atkinson
WI
USA
863 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 12:28:41 PM
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Personally, I don't think you can generalize. You can't say everyone commits a crime because they choose to and same with environment. I think it's different for everyone and every circumstance. There are people who grow up in middle class families with a good upbringing who commit crimes. Or white collared crimes...I would think those would be out of free will. They don't really need to commit the crimes to survive or it wasn't behavior that was learned from their families or upbringing. They just do it for the rush.
Then there are people who grow up in poor neighborhoods. No matter what they try to do, they just can't get ahead. They have bills to pay, kids to feed....they get desperate. Genuinely they are good people, but maybe they have to steal to keep food on the table for their kids. Also, you have poor neighborhoods where gangs are present. Often times kids and young adults join gangs for safety and it's the way of life in these neighborhoods. They steal, kill, and whatever else they do. Perhaps if they had grown up in different neighborhoods, they wouldn't be doing this. Lastly, there are people who have been abused. Often times they grow up to abuse people, abuse alcohol, abuse drugs and other criminal behavior. I would think these would all be examples of environmental circumstances.
Then you have people who are mentally ill who commit heinous crimes. Maybe they are this way from severe abuse as a child or maybe they are just not wired right in the head. I don't know.
I think there are too many factors to take into consideration to be able to say it is one or the other.
Emily |
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prariehawk
True Blue Farmgirl
2914 Posts
Cindy
2914 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 12:36:05 PM
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Roxanna--from what I know of narcissism, it's a character disorder, which is a little different than a mental illness. Mental illness can be fairly well controlled by medication and therapy. A person with a character disorder doesn't respond to medication and resists all attempts at therapy. Can mental illness make a person narcissistic? I don't know. Someone who works with people with mental disabilities told me once that people with character disorders respond best to a very controlling environment--like prison.
Cindy
"Vast floods can't quench love, no matter what love did/ Rivers can't drown love, no matter where love's hid"--Sinead O'Connor
"In many ways, you don't just live in the country, it lives inside you"--Ellen Eilers
Visit my blog at http://www.farmerinthebelle.blogspot.com/ |
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rphelps4
True Blue Farmgirl
620 Posts
roxanna
westport
indiana
USA
620 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 3:15:05 PM
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| Thank you Prariehawk, I know someone who lives with someone who is narcissistic, plus bi-polar and addictions, he is very hard to live with and they have two small children, I just worry about the kids because they are young and can't understand all of the ups and downs. I don't think divorce is right but sometimes it is better for the children. Roxanna |
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prariehawk
True Blue Farmgirl
2914 Posts
Cindy
2914 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2012 : 8:18:42 PM
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Another book on the subject of free will is the novel An American Tragedy by, I think, Theodore Dreiser. I read it in high school and it really made me think.
Cindy
"Vast floods can't quench love, no matter what love did/ Rivers can't drown love, no matter where love's hid"--Sinead O'Connor
"In many ways, you don't just live in the country, it lives inside you"--Ellen Eilers
Visit my blog at http://www.farmerinthebelle.blogspot.com/ |
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SandraM
True Blue Farmgirl
295 Posts
Sandra
Coldwater
Michigan
USA
295 Posts |
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goneriding
True Blue Farmgirl
1599 Posts
Winona
Central Oregon
USA
1599 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2012 : 10:05:03 AM
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I tend to think it's more free will with a bit of environment thrown in. I don't have a psych degree, just my opinion from observing people.
I read books from all periods of time, from the ancients to modern day and it seems the definition of 'moral' flexes and varies also.
If you are in a cultural climate of steal it back after it's been stolen from you, then I'm not sure where to peg that one. If you are in a place where it's the norm to kill someone who refuses to help you when you are in the direst of straits, well, what is that?? If you help someone get their cattle back from the 'bad' guys because their kids are starving but it's okay to steal them back when times get better, who's to say?? These examples are from my own family waaaayyyyy back in the lowlands of Scotland. All this stuff was totally normal back then. Of course, it's not modern day but my point is about the 'norms' people live in at the time.
Nowadays, we have all these rules and regs and what we perceive as 'normal'.
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CountryBorn
True Blue Farmgirl
1545 Posts
Mary Jane
New York
USA
1545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2012 : 2:06:58 PM
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I think enviorment is a factor in presenting these examples of bad choices to you, and also the good choices. But in the end, I believe it is a matter of choice, free will which ever you decide to call it. We all have a choice to do something or not to.Alot of people will argue that if people have alcoholics or druggies for parents they will follow suit. Or if they have violence in their life or sexual,verbal or physical abuse they will be more inclined to follow that path. Yes, some do, of that there is no doubt. But,I beleive that the final choice still lies within in you. You can follow the same path that you probably despised or you can choose to do the exact opposite of it. I know I choose to not do the things to myself or my family that I hated. I know others who choose to follow the bad examples. It comes down to making your own life choices or allowing yourself to follow the screwed up path of others.
MJ
There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the things we do. Freya Stark |
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oldbittyhen
True Blue Farmgirl
1511 Posts
tina
quartz hill
ca
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2012 : 2:19:50 PM
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I believe its both, and I do believe in "being a product of your enviroment", as in with alot of people/families right now are doing what they have to do to survive, as in stealing food, butchering livestock that does not belong to them, just so their kids can eat, I'm not saying its right, but I understand...in my area, all but one foodbank has closed, cause they are not getting enough donations to keep open, and I just read that people who are receiving foodstamps has jumped to the most extreme high in this country. I do and give what I can, but its getting harder do to the high cost of everything...
"Knowlege is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad" |
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Rosemary
True Blue Farmgirl
1825 Posts
Virginia
USA
1825 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2012 : 12:18:51 AM
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| It's important for us to remember, no matter what our personal answers to Melody's original question, that the Leopold & Loeb case played out in a very different environment from ours. It has long been thought by many that these two wealthy, privileged young men were guilty of nothing more than being gay and Jewish at the wrong time and in the wrong place. That's at the extreme end of a far more complex story, of course, but it's important to keep in mind the relatively limited awareness and understanding of even the medical, psychiatric and legal communities of those times. I suspect that today, both these young men would have lived very different lives. Being openly gay would not pose the same threat, though a threat would today certainly exist -- ask any gay victim of a hate crime about this. Whatever mental illnesses they suffered would probably today be diagnosed and treated early on, but who knows? Some say they killed Franks because he had threatened to "out" them just when their careers as students were on the rise; in those days, in that environment, having one's homosexuality publicly revealed was a fate almost worse than death. And very few in their social milieu would have much sympathy for Jews. So again, who knows? It's a perennially fascinating question, isn't it? |
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AnnieinIdaho
True Blue Farmgirl
437 Posts
Annie
ID
USA
437 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2012 : 12:38:41 AM
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Hi Sisters,
Well, I do believe many people make choices within the framework of their constraints, rather than working on the constraints to free themselves. I also believe that awareness and becoming mindful helps us make choices we may not have realized were available to us at an earlier time. Just as children may not be able to formulate plans of action that when they are older they are able to figure out. I do believe that "free will" is a universal law. But I think our brain has all kinds of hidden checks and balances, agenda's, environment, and even genetic dispositions to certain actions. I throw in the genetic part of the equation, because I never knew my half-sister until I was in my mid 50's. I never had any interaction with my biological family on my paternal side, and interestingly my half-sister and I both married military men, both have high interest in nature, quilting, our parenting styles, the importance of our homes, what animals we prefer and our opinions are so close. Really, when I talk with her, it is like meeting a clone of myself in nature (we have some resemblance in looks, but mostly personality, strengths, weaknesses, allergies, and we pursued so many similar roads of interests.) Made me wonder about whether I was really making these choices all along, or following a predisposition to a certain programming in the genes. Very interesting! Even the men we married have very similar belief systems and opinions. I am 15 years older also than my half-sister, and these traits emerged in-spite of this slight generational shift in time frame. I do know environment can impact people in a huge way, and that having positive role models in one's life can make a difference in the choices made. Interesting topic and I enjoyed your viewpoints. They make sense to me! Yes, I do also believe "re-parenting" or knowing the many facets of your personhood helps free you to make choices without hidden pressures or cultural habits you used to not realize were impacting your decisions and actions. This is very freeing and gives you what I call "a clear line of sight and understanding" of where, who, and how you are. This "growth" takes place over time, experiences, and is how we become, to be, and to belong.
Annie
"The turnings of life seldom show a sign-post; or rather, though the sign is always there, it is usually placed some distance back, like the notices that give warning of a bad hill or a level railway-crossing." Edith Wharton, 1913 from 'The Custom of the Country'. |
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Across the Fence: Free Will Or Environment? |
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Free Will Or Environment?
